Logan: Hey MIKE! Let’s talk about this week on the site. Starting with the interview we just published with Jake Smith. You told me you thought I didn’t push him hard enough. Want to elaborate?

Mike: Jake was an interesting interview subject for the series because he’s very well-read—not just in terms of all those personal finance books, but he’s aware of specific struggles happening within the middle class, and about those championing those struggles, mainly Elizabeth Warren. So understanding that, and that the typical middle class household doesn’t have multiple homes and cars and hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest—it just seemed to me like there was a little bit of a disconnect. I guess I just wanted there to be a moment where he just said, “Yes, I am a part of the one percent. No question. And yes that makes me comparatively rich. But I just don’t feel that way.” Which, fair enough. You’re rich, you just don’t feel rich. You are allowed to feel however you want.

Logan: Well, he said that in his original email to me. But yeah, my sense is that while he knows everything is relative and compared to a lot of other people he’s very very well off, he doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about that comparison—he just looks at his bank accounts and thinks, if everything went to shit tomorrow, what would happen? And really, I think about this sometimes, too—I know I’m better off than a lot of people, but besides being thankful for that, how does that help me get where I need to be?

At this point, I’m very comfortable talking to people I perceive as peers about their money. The original “rich person” I talked to was a young person with a big salary and he knew it was a big salary, and so I felt like we were coming from the same place. I think we also had similar upbringings so maybe it’s less a question of age and more a question of class. Maybe I’m more comfortable talking to people I perceive of being of the same class as me. It’s harder for me to talk to older people, and people with money—I read over the chats I’ve done with trust funders, and there’s something missing in a lot of them, this sort of line between trying to connect with them as humans, which I think I do an okay job of, but also getting them to acknowledge themseves as actors in this sort of larger story about our economy (RICH PEOPLE). Which is a long way to say, yeah, I didn’t push Jake to talk about his role in the larger picture. As a not rich person, it’s pretty easy to be like, ugh, rich people ruin everything and be sort of anti-rich, but everyone is a person. But maybe I should have asked about poor people. Or maybe it doesn’t matter at all. I don’t know.

Mike: It was more that he already seemed aware that the middle and lower classes are being hollowed out, and that their anxieties and problems are much different from what he’s experiencing as someone with three homes and three cars and three years of emergency savings. And when he compares that to those being hallowed out, does he feel fortunate? Prosperous? When I was reading through the interview, I sort of anticipated what the reaction was going to be—and it went pretty much exactly how I expected it would. I had some of my own questions, but hey, we could always do a follow-up, and also, we’ll be running these kinds of interviews for as long as we want, so there will always be opportunities to ask more questions. Also, Logan, the interview was great, and you asked a lot of good questions. Okay, next topic.

Logan: Dark Caves of Depression. Martha Kaplan and I published our third chat about depression yesterday. Every time we’ve done one I’m like, ughhhh I feel like I sound like a broken record, but then there is always someone who says in the comments, “I was feeling like this, thank you,” so I think it’s worth it, you know, to further my online presence as a depressive compulsive spender with a massive consumer debt problem. Anyway. In yesterday’s chat I dropped that our relationship—you and me—is the one that is most affected by my depression, and though we’ve talked about this and around this a lot, maybe we should talk about it Right Now.

Mike: I agree, this is good. And those conversations are also very good and important because it addresses something important, mainly, that a lot of people who have problems with money aren’t just obsessed with shopping too much or are super materialistic. Those people exist, yes, but there are also a lot of deep-rooted stuff people don’t really talk about when it comes to what affects their relationship with money, and, well, you are talking about it. Your conversation with Martha is a conversation with two people who are experiencing similar things. I think it’s good that we’re going to talk a little bit about this now: What it’s like for one person with depression to interact with someone who isn’t experiencing depression, and how it affects their relationship. So, how does it affect me? Well, sometimes when your depression affects your work, it means I have to work a little bit more, which I think has an even more adverse effect on you. Because I can tell that you feel bad.

Logan: Well let’s define, a little more work. One thing that’s really terrible for you, I think, is it’s not like I just wake up and know this is going to be a terrible day for me and can be like, at 8 a.m., “Hey Mike, this is going to be a terrible day for me, can we adjust the schedule, or something.” Instead I like, oversleep or will myself out of bed and get online and say I’m going to do all the things I’m supposed to do, and then sometimes just … don’t do them. I mean, I’m trying to do them, but then an hour goes by and I’ve read 10 articles but I have nothing to say about any of them because who wants to hear what I have to say about anything, etc. And then you’re like, “Hey that post you said you were going to put up 20 minutes ago, what’s up with THAT?” So those days are really shitty for both of us, I think, but I’m the cause of that shittiness. Or my brain. My brain chemicals? (That’s a hard part for everyone with depression, which part of this am I culpable for, and which part can I really not help right now?)

And I talked about this a little yesterday, but I do wonder sometimes if maybe I had some terrible fire-breathing boss who was like, going to CUT ME UP INTO TINY PIECES if I didn’t have a post on time or woke up late, maybe I would do better? Like, I definitely definitely don’t sit at my computer and consciously think, “Oh, Mike will do it so I’ll just sit here and have fun … ” Like, it’s not fun, I’m not having fun. It really does feel like I Cannot Do It. Sometimes. And this isn’t all the time. But sometimes. God I have no idea what I’m saying.

Mike: Truth be told, it’s not like I’m always taking it in stride. It can be very frustrating. It can feel unfair. But I have other people in my life who have also struggled with depression so I’ve learned to react to it in a specific way. Getting angry doesn’t help, so if I feel upset, I table it away and get the work done and then come back to it later to address it before it builds up to something really awful. Reprimanding isn’t going to help, because you’re aware of what the problem is and why it’s a problem. The only thing we can really do is to talk openly and honestly about it and figure out a way to make it work and what we can do to make it better. That’s how a healthy working relationship should work—or ours, I think. So, the dilemma I have with you sometimes is that if you are having a terrible, dark day you won’t tell me that’s the reason until the next day. Sometimes, it’s just radio silence, and I’m left wondering, “Is she okay? What can I do to help? Should I just finish the day by myself?”

Logan: Yeah, it seems so obvious, like: Just communicate! But it can be really, really hard. But I’m very very thankful for you, I don’t know how often I tell you that. Not enough, I’m sure. I have this new job, working in a restaurant on the weekends, and I was talking to someone about it, and she said, “Are you worried you’re going to not be able to get out of bed, and that you’ll get fired?” And the answer to that is no, absolutely not, because that is the consequence of not getting out of bed for that job, right? That’s how restaurant jobs and retail jobs work. You don’t show up, you get fired. My mom sent me a really sweet email last night and said, “I was reading your chat with Martha and maybe you’re trying to make something fit that doesn’t fit,” the thing that doesn’t fit being not having to be somewhere each day. Maybe I’m the kind of person who shouldn’t actually be my own boss! In that way, we are so very different. You are more productive and focused than anyone I’ve ever met, ever.

Mike: Well, thank you. I’m not quite sure what else to say besides I think we are building something different and interesting when it comes to how people talk about money. And that I’m glad to have you on the site. Your perspective is important! And also that we’re getting better and figuring out how to make things work, and that I’m willing to keep working at it until we’re all happy. What kind of person would I be if I just sort of gave up on that? Okay, before this gets to be too much, let’s end on something happy.

Logan: God yes this serious stuff, blech. Let’s end on a high note, care of William Foster and Mr. Biscuit:

What to say when a friend offers to buy you a drink but you only have enough money to buy one drink over the course of the whole night:

LS: “OKAY.” (And then when you go to get another round, you just buy them a beer and you get some water because you’re trying to uh, stay hydrated.)

MD: “You can buy me a drink if you let me buy you a drink.” (And then nurse my drink a little bit, get some social time in and go home early to be in bed by 10.)

What to say when you want to hangout with someone but you don’t have any money, like, literally no money:

LS: “Want to come to my house and drink tap water? Or go on a walk and not make any stops?”

MD: “Hey, want to hang out? We can watch a movie at my place or meet at the park, or do anything else that doesn’t require money because I’m in austerity mode right now.”

What to say when you’re meeting someone for drinks but you don’t have any money and you kind of hope they’ll pay for you but you also don’t want to like, expect they’ll pay for you, but you also don’t want them to feel like they have to pay for you, and by no money, you actually have $3:

LS: “I’ll have a seltzer.”

MD: [Nothing. If I didn't have enough money, I wouldn't agree to meet someone for drinks.]

What to say when you’re meeting someone for drinks but you don’t have any money and you kind of hope they’ll pay for you but you also don’t want to like, expect they’ll pay for you, but you also don’t want them to feel like they have to pay for you, and by no money, you actually have zero dollars:

LS: “I left my wallet at home today, doh! Can you cover me and I’ll pay you back?”

MD: [Nothing. If I didn't have any money, I wouldn't agree to meet someone for drinks.]

What to say if someone asks you to dinner and you’re almost positive they are going to pay but maybe they won’t actually, and you can’t afford it, if they don’t:

LS: “I’d love to, but I don’t get paid til Wednesday.”

OR

LS: “Hot dogs in the park are more my speed right now.”

OR

LS: “Or we could couscous and salad dressing at my house.”

MD: “Oh, I’d love to, but I can’t afford to eat out right now. Next time!”

What to say if someone invites you to their house for dinner and you normally would bring wine but you can’t bring wine this time, because: no money:

LS: “Here are some flowers I stole from people’s yards on the way over here.”

OR

LS: “Here are some flowers I foraged from people’s yards on the way over here.”

OR

LS: “Everybody loves seltzer! Here’s some seltzer. It’s grapefruit flavored.”

MD: “I’m going to look in my cupboard and make something special to bring.”

What to say if your friend doesn’t have money, but you do and you are planning a date together.

MD: Let’s hang out tonight! My treat.

LS: Let’s hang out tonight! My treat.

OR

LS: Hahha me either. Come over and watch some Nashville eps?

Photo: Jenny Downing

Mike: Logan, are you doing anything in particular for your mom for Mother’s Day?

Logan: I will call her on the phone and also probably compose her an email. Maybe I will draw a picture and take a photo of it and text it to her. The fake holidays aren’t too big in my family. We acknowledge them, but there are no expectations. At least that’s how I’ve always understood it, maybe I’m totally wrong! (I don’t think I’m wrong.)

Mike: Card is in the mail (with a check that she can use to pamper herself however she likes). When my brothers and I were kids we used to each buy her single rose from the church ladies, and then we’d all go out to eat as a family. And my mom would sit with us and ask us each to list some reasons why she was the best.

Logan: Hahhaha. Your mom is awesome. And you’re awesome, too. Was it on your calendar to send the card, or did you just know to do it?

Mike: Oh, I remembered. And you get reminded about it! All those very helpful PR people who remind you about the holidays and such. Oh, I also remember one Mother’s Day when my brothers and I saved up some money and went to one of those stores that sell engraved glass objects, and we got her a glass rose in a little glass container and laser-engraved each of our names on it. It was pretty much the most exciting thing as a 10-year-old. My mom still has it on her vanity desk.

Logan: Your memory is unparalleled. Serious question: Will our birds who bounced their rent check post make us $1 million dollars? Is that how it works?

Mike: Haha. Probably not! But good job on finding those bird photos!

Logan: I just remembered our site has been around a year so we have a record of last mother’s day. You bought a ticket to fly home to see your mom, and I called my mom when I was half-asleep. Okay! Consistency. We are the same people one year later. Also Mike, I know you’ve never bounced a rent check, but IF YOU DID, which bird would you be?

Mike: I always thought I’d make a pretty good owl. Like the kind that brings messages to wizard children.

Logan: And the kind that is shocked when he bounces his rent check.

Mike: So that post was totally tongue in cheek. Your rent check has not bounced. Has it ever bounced?

Logan: Only once or twice. It’s definitely been late before—I always had pretty chill landlords, and it was easier to call them and say, I’m going to be a day late, or please don’t deposit this for a few days, then to call a bank and be like, so about that car payment. But it’s been a very long time. I’m a responsible adult now, Mike Dang. And it wasn’t tongue in cheek. I really did feel like those birds evoked the raw human emotion of what it feels like to bounce a rent check. Nothing funny about that.

Mike: Oh I felt for those birds. I wanted to give each one of those birds a home. Okay, one last thing about moms before we go. Are there any lessons, financial or otherwise that your mom taught you? Like maybe saving on cereal? Or which boys to stay away from? WHICH BIRDS TO STAY AWAY FROM?

Logan: My brain is filled with wonderful advice from my mom (“the only difference between a three month relationship and a three year relationship is that in the first one, you accept something is wrong sooner”). But the one that I think about the most is something she’s told me ever since I was a little kid: “Everybody is doing the best they can.”

Mike: I mentioned this in an earlier post today, but as a Tiger Cub, I had a tendency to rebel against some of the advice my mother gave me in terms of what it means to have a good life and be successful. But mothers also say contradictory things, and one of those things for me was: “If you feel good about what you’re doing, and you are doing good things, it doesn’t really matter what anybody else says.” I feel good about what I’m doing.

Mike: Logan, did you contribute to that Kickstarter project that was going to fund the next Veronica Mars movie?

Logan: I did not. I have never seen Veronica Mars. I’m saving myself for it. I’m saving it for myself. I’m saving it. You?

Mike: I watched the seasons that took place in high school and enjoyed the show a lot. But I did not give any money to the Kickstarter campaign. Maybe if I were a Super Fan I would have considered it, but I also am torn about donating to projects like these. I mean, I have limited dollars to give, and if I give, I prefer to give to smaller no-name stuff. Not that I think anyone who did give money to the Veronica Mars movie or Garden State 2 is doing it wrong! Support the things you love, no matter what they are.

Logan: Right. I think I’ve only given money to one Kickstarter—my friend Kim’s project to build an art installation at Burning Man. Which is a group of words that sounds stupid together, but they already had a grant, and what they were building was really cool, and they just needed this push to do it, and I was like, you’re a best friend, yes, I will give you $20 or whatever. But other than that, no, I haven’t done this. Kickstarting is a little bit like voting with your dollars. Or maybe it’s exactly like voting with your dollars? And yeah. I guess I’m okay with not voting. Let other people cast those votes for me. I mean, as pumped as I am for Garden State 2, like, is my vote or my $20 really what’s going to make it happen? No.

Also like, there was a while where I made fun of that movie before I’d even seen it because that’s what you did as a young person who wanted to be perceived as a certain kind of person, you made fun of Garden State. And then I did see it at some point and probably liked it because that was the kind of young person I was but THEN I saw half of it on HBO last time I was home and I really did not like it. I agreed with my original assessment, that it wasn’t very good.

Mike: I remember liking the soundtrack, but I honestly don’t really recall what the plot was about. What else have I funded on Kickstarter? Lots of one-off publications. Tomorrow is one example of that. There have been a few things that I’ve given $5 to simply because a friend posted their friend’s project on Facebook or Twitter and I thought, sure, why not? Have your friends ever asked you to donate to their Kickstarter projects and did you feel like you were obligated to give?

Logan: Well everyone I know (and lots of people I don’t know!) already know that I don’t have any money. So I haven’t gotten personalized pleas. But I’ve been on emails, I’ve seen Facebook posts, mostly friends making movies. I didn’t realize I had a rule, but I guess I kind of have a rule, that I just feel like, those pleas don’t apply to me right now. Like, I actually do not have the money to be funding anybody’s passion project, even mine. So I don’t even click through usually. I mean, I could just as easily say I’ll give everyone $5, but … I don’t do that. I just sort of have to disengage from that.

I mean, it’s sort of like I have to have the same rules with people asking for money on the street. If I have a dollar or two in my pocket or in my bag, I’ll give it. Or if I have a sandwich, I can give it away. But that’s it. It has to be sort of random and easy and I definitely can’t make a decision every single time about it. It’s too exhausting. So the big decision is made, for now: I can’t afford to give to Kickstarters, I can’t afford to give to people on the street. Unless there happens to be a dollar in my pocket. Unless the request happens to come from my best friend. ETC .

Mike: I’ve only had one bad experience with someone who asked me to donate to her project. She was a friend of a friend I had met once or twice at a party eight years ago? She probably sent me 10 emails asking me if I could donate to her project, and it was awkward for me to be like, “Sorry, I don’t really know you?” But I finally had to say that. To stop the emails. I feel like there should be some sort of etiquette where you can ask once for a donation. Maybe twice max to be like, “Today is the final day!” But otherwise, sheesh.

Logan: I have been trying to find this article I read a few weeks ago by this dude who … produces plays maybe? (I can’t find it.) He wrote that his problem with the celebrity Kickstarters—and Kickstarter in general—is that it is not an investment. If the project does well, you don’t do well. There is no guarantee of any kind of on your “investment.” There is no explicit agreement between the person donating the money and the person who gets it. He said basically, that if he asks you for money, he should be giving you a way to get that money back. And I thought that was compelling.

Mike: Yes, because in Hollywood, the people who fund and invest in movies get to be producers and if the movie does well, they get to profit off of it. It would be kind of cool if they did is so that if, say, Garden State 2 did well all the people who gave money to the movie would get some share of the profit. Like, the goal would be $3 million, and Zach Braff could buy out a third of the movie and be like there are $2 million in shares left! But instead people get posters and T-shirts or whatever. But really, someone else should try that.

Logan: Brb gotta go code some shit.

Mike: Logan, it finally feels like spring! This is how spring affects me: iced coffees/teas (I already bought three in the last two days), rooftop bars or sitting outside for a drink or bite. Free time in the park, or walking along the Hudson, which I’ve missed doing because it’s been too cold to really enjoy it.

Logan: I’ve started going on walks again, which I hadn’t really realized I’d stopped doing. But yeah. Walking places instead of taking the subway is really nice. Noticing what flowers are blooming is nice. Spending a couple of hours doing something nice without spending money is nice.

Mike: Also, what I’m really glad about this year compared to last year is that I can enjoy it a little bit more, because last year most of my money was being spent flying around the country attending weddings. Not a single wedding yet this year! Everybody is basically married!

Logan: Oh I didn’t tell you about my destination wedding in Fiji? You’re invited. You’re also paying for it.

Mike: How much is a destination wedding in Fiji?

Logan: Google says tickets are $1,300. But you know me, I’m low maintenance. Everyone is going to camp on the beach. The flowers will be foraged. We’ll all be barefoot so that’s like, hundreds of dollars in shoe savings. And there’s no groom, so you know, half the people, half the little figurines to go on top of the cake (full cake). Super cheappppp.

Okay. Mike. For real though. You said you saw Jon Hamm but then you DIDN’T GIVE ANY DETAILS. Remedy that.

Mike: I attended a Broadway play last night (the one starring Alec Baldwin), and Jon Hamm came walking in all Hollywood handsome dressed in a suit with five other people. I like that Jon Hamm wears a suit to watch a Broadway play. We should all dress up to go to the theatre! Anyway, one lady freaked out and she ran up to the bar area and asked, “WHAT DID JON HAMM ORDER?” The bartender said, “I’m not sure. A glass of cabernet?” And she said, “I WANT TO HAVE THAT TOO.” Which was funny to me—it was like a movie scene or something.

Logan: “I’LL HAVE WHAT SHE’S HAVING.” Wonderful. Wonderful. Jon Hamm. A+ celebrity sighting, well done. Were you dressed up to go to the theatre?

Mike: I usually dress up, but I only had a nice shirt on with jeans because my friends and I had been running around the city for six hours before that. But I do want to see Lucky Guy the Nora Ephron play starring Tom Hanks. And if I can find an affordable ticket, I will wear a suit like Jon Hamm to the theatre.

Logan: A few weeks ago a friend was in town and we spent the afternoon in Central Park just lazing around (immediately I was like, I want to spend every afternoon in Central Park, lazing) (number of afternoons since then I’ve spent in Central Park, lazing: none). ANYWAY we walked over to Lincoln Center after and sat in the plaza there for awhile, and we got there just as people were getting there for that evening’s show, and it was really fun to see everyone meet up outside the theater and exchange tickets and go in, and it was also really nice to see that some people were in shorts and sandals and some were in longer evening gowns (okay, one was in an evening gown), but there were all types. And it was nice! Democratic! Our classless society! I mean okay so it was actually mostly like, older people who obviously had a lot of money and some young people who obviously had a lot of money and then some students and then also many foreign couples with knapsacks, who’d been like, being tourists all day. But still. I like that all are welcome to the theaaattttterrr.

Mike:A lot of the shows have student rush tickets so young people can go to the theater and pay around $30 and sit in the front row or next to Jon Hamm. We got regular discounted tickets the day of. I don’t really go to the theater because it costs a lot, but I may try just going to the box office every now and then to see if they have discounted rush tickets. Spring is the best time for dramatic plays! someone said in the theater.

Logan: As soon as I typed, “all are welcome,” I was like, wait, that’s not true, tickets are one million dollars.” I saw a play a few weeks ago because a friend had free tickets. It was THE NANCE with NATHAN LANE and it was really wonderful and the sign in the lobby was like, buy a ticket if you want, that’ll be $200. And right before I saw that sign, I was like, why don’t I go to the theater it’s so nice to go to the theater. And then I saw that sign. And you know, it answered my question to myself. But if I was a person who had money, I would go see THE NANCE again. Really! So like, if you have money, you should go see it. THAT IS MY PLUG. Should people spend money to go see the play you saw?

Mike: No. I didn’t really like it (ORPHANS). But maybe yes if they like Alec Baldwin, who was still fun and great? I would have been disappointed if not for Alec Baldwin and Jon Hamm. Hamm saved the day.

Mike: Why don’t you introduce yourself.

Single Mom: I’m 42 years old, divorced, and a single mom of three elementary school-age kids. I work in the administration of a non-profit. I live in a Maryland suburb of D.C.

M: How much are you currently earning at the non-profit?

SM: I earn $40,000 a year, and that is supplemented with child support that I receive from my children’s dad—about $1,500 a month.

M: Do you also have benefits?

SM: I have health insurance. It was a hard decision to make on whether or not to get insurance for myself. My employer pays two-thirds of the premium, but even the one-third I pay takes a significant bite out of my paycheck. I have it for now, but I may have to drop it. I don’t have any retirement benefits or anything.

M: There aren’t retirement plan options like a 403(b) or anything like that at the non-profit?

SM: No, nothing. I work for a very small non-profit. The budget and staff are both very small so the insurance isn’t even a group plan. I had to find my own insurance and I submit my premium bills to my employer.

M: How long have you worked at this particular job?

SM: I have been there since last August. I was working in the private sector prior to that, earning a bit more in salary and benefits but I was laid off. I was unemployed for just under three months before finding this job.

M: Do you have full custody of your three children?

SM: No, I do share custody of the kids. But I am responsible for paying all the child care costs, which has translated in practice to me paying all school-related costs: lunches, field trips, equipment, as well as the before and after care costs.

M: I’m sure that’s very difficult to do as a single mother living on your salary. How do you make it work?

SM: It is very difficult. I definitely live paycheck-to-paycheck and that’s not an exaggeration. My bank balance by payday is often $0. I have no savings at all. My priorities as far as bills go are rent and childcare. I am lucky that I don’t have a lot of credit card debt, but even without that I can’t always pay all my bills. I have a very strict budget that I stick to. I can’t always pay utility bills in full, but I have figured out how much I have to pay to keep the utility companies from shutting off my service. My gas usage is higher in the winter, but goes way down in the summer so I am able to catch up on that bill by the next winter. I rent a very rundown house in a good school system and pay below market rent. Even then I have negotiated that rent to keep it low—not asking for a lot of work to be done, doing work on the house myself, etc.

I have really learned to negotiate a lot. For the summer, I simply could not afford the cost of full-time care for all three kids—it was more than I earn! So I contacted the child care provider and was very frank about my situation and was able to work out an arrangement for payment that allows me to keep them in child care. Then there are bills that I just can’t pay. I was saddled with a large debt in my divorce and I have just no money to pay that with—I know it will catch up with me eventually but for right now my priority is keeping my kids sheltered, fed and cared for.

I stick to a strict budget as far as groceries. I make menus, never shop without a list and rarely have “treats” for the kids. Our big night is when I order pizza and watch a movie on Netflix. My kids are growing so fast and I really can’t keep up with buying clothes for three of them so I have learned to swallow my pride and ask for donations. I belong to a listserv of single mothers and just put it out there that I needed clothes and received a lot of donations which got us through the winter.

I don’t take vacations—alone or with the kids. We rarely go out and when the kids are with their dad, I don’t go out. It’s very isolating because not having any “extra” money means I can’t go out and socialize.

M: Can you break down some of the numbers for us? How much do you allocate toward rent and utility bills, child care, and things like gas and groceries?

SM: I pay $1,480 per month in rent, $1,386 per month in child care, and I usually pay about $75 to gas and electric, though as I said, my bills are often higher than that. I keep my groceries to $400 per month, and that includes things like toiletries and household supplies. One of my children has some medical issues so I pay around $100 in medication for him per month, I do have Internet and phone and basic cable, which is bundled and has recently gone up in price to $130 per month so I will most likely have to cut back that service in some way..

I try not to drive too much—I take the bus and metro, but that can even be expensive during peak hours. I have a prepaid cell phone and only pay $25 per month for that. My phone is very old but I am planning on keeping it for as long as possible because the plan will increase by $10 if I get a newer phone. I pay about $150 per month to credit card debt. One is a card that I have closed and I am paying off the balance. I am almost done paying it. I negotiated with the bank that issued the card to pay a lower monthly amount in but it has taken longer to pay off

M: Do you have student loan debt or other debt besides the credit card?

SM: Well, that’s complicated. I personally do not have actual student loan debt but while I was married, my husband and I consolidated our loans with the Department of Education. Since I had the loan with the DoE, we consolidated in my name. He got his master’s overseas with private loans so he had a lot of debt. In the divorce, that debt landed with me since it was in my name. So there is a $48,000 student loan debt that I have for an education my ex-husband got. I have been able to put it in forbearance and even deferment when I was unemployed but it’s in repayment now. I have not been able to pay one penny of that debt. I have to deal with it but it seems so daunting, I am just incapable of figuring out a solution.

M: Your ex-husband is not making an attempt to pay off that loan?

SM: No, he is quite happy that he doesn’t have to pay it!

M: That’s terrible. Is the loan sitting there accruing interest?

SM: Interest and late payments. I have been getting calls from the company recently and they offer to “help” me figure out a payment, but the reality is that I don’t have anything to give them. You’ll be happy to hear that the master’s my ex got has allowed him to earn a great salary, though!

M: It’s really unbelievable. Have you looked into legal help with it?

SM: I am in the process of looking into that. I have been trying to find the a copy of the original paperwork I submitted to consolidate, which would list the loans and prove that they are not mine. I no longer have that paperwork and the loan has been sold so it’s hard to figure out where that record is. I’ve also looked into Chapter 7 bankruptcy because I’ve recently read that in spite of popular belief, it can be possible to dispatch student loans through Chapter 7. But as I said, it’s so stressful and daunting—I’ve ignored it for too long. I’ll add that I only have a B.A. from a state school.

M: I’m glad to hear there’s some hope of getting that loan discharged. What did you study, and how much was your college education?

SM: I have a degree in theater—very useful, I know. But I started college at 17 and wasn’t ready so I dropped out. By the time I figured I better get a degree, I was so close to the theater degree and, since I was paying my own way, I figured that was better than nothing. I don’t really remember how much my education cost. I got a combination of grants and loans but it wasn’t much, as I said, it was a state school and I had in-state tuition.

M: You’re living paycheck-to-paycheck now, but has it always been like that?

SM: When I was married, things were definitely better. We were pretty solidly middle class. We had our financial struggles, but were doing fairly well. I used to have a savings and a small retirement fund, but I had to cash out and spend it during the divorce.

M: And I’m sure you’re really caught up living in the day-to-day, but do you also think about things like retirement? Do you no longer believe that’s an option, or are you figuring out a way to do it?

SM: I just can’t think about it. I know that I will be one of those people who works until they drop dead. It’s just not my reality. My priority is my kids and making sure they have a better future than I have. I feel like I’ve kind of just given up any thoughts of having a better life for myself, and really just try to focus on my kids.

M: What kind of life did you have growing up?

SM: I was raised in a pretty typically middle class environment. My siblings and I weren’t spoiled but we never really wanted for much. I have learned in my adulthood that my father was not very good with money. He spent what he had and was no good at saving, which has left my mom in a less than great place since his death. I worry that I have inherited that trait. I mean, sometimes I wonder if I should be making my finances work better—if it’s not that I have a low salary and high expenses, but if it’s also that I am just no good with money.

M: But I think raising three children on what you are earning is quite an accomplishment and deserves recognition. Do you not agree?

SM: I do feel a sense of pride that my kids don’t know the struggles I go through. I am particularly proud of the fact that they never knew I was unemployed—nothing about their lives changed.

M: After your father passed, your mom was left in less of a great place because he wasn’t good with money. How is your mother now?

SM: I mean, he always managed to pay the bills, but he was a very generous guy too—he just didn’t plan and save for retirement. So my mother, who is in her early 70s is still working.

M: Are you close with your mother? Do you talk about money with her?

SM: I am very close to my mom (though not physically—she is in the Midwest with the rest of my family). I try very hard not to discuss my financial situation with her, though it comes up because I am not able to take the kids to visit, etc. We do discuss her finances a little and I know she’s not in a horrible place but just not in great place. I don’t like to discuss the extent of my financial struggles with her because I don’t want her to worry, and I don’t want her to feel the need to give me what little she has and needs.

M: Do you also worry about her? Since she’s still working?

SM: I worry, but see some of her problems as solvable, she is just hesitant to do things like sell her house and move in closer to my sister. That would be a big help for her. She is fairly good with money. I think she just never took charge while my dad was alive, and she seems to be doing OK. I do think she would prefer to stop working and she is trying to figure out a way to make that happen.

M: You said something pretty bleak before in that you have given up on having a better life for yourself, but talking with you so far, you seem like a very resilient person. I know that your income is the biggest barrier at the moment. Are you thinking about ways to earn more money? Do you have the spare time to look for a better-paying job?

SM: Yeah, I guess I am resilient. I feel like I have to be for my kids. I am always thinking of ways to earn extra income. I have often in my working life worked a part-time job in addition to my full-time work, but that was while I was married. It’s tougher to find the time now that I have blocks of time without another parent around. I would be working just to pay for babysitting. I would love a better paying job but have concerns about my tenure at jobs. I was not at my previous job very long (about 12 months) before I was laid off, and I haven’t been at my current job for a year yet, I want to build experience and a bit of longevity because I think in the longer term, that would help me get a better job or advance my career.

M: Do you have the sense that the situation you are now is not permanent? That you believe that there will be a time when you are no longer living paycheck to paycheck?

SM: Honestly, I don’t. I think about where other people my age are financially—home owners, retirement accounts, college funds—and the amount of catching up I would have to do just seems impossible. I do tend to think of my situation as just the way things are for me—not in a “victimy” way, I take responsibility for the life choices I have made that have put me here—but I think I am just too far behind in terms of financial health to ever be in a significantly better place.

M: You mentioned that things were easier when you had another parent around to help with parenting duties. Do you think having another partner to help out in the future is something that could happen?

SM: No, I don’t. For a variety of reasons. One of which is my financial state. I feel that I would be bringing someone down if I partnered with them, financially I mean, and I don’t want to do that. I mean, there are other reasons I’m not really looking for another marriage or partner, but the financial reasons are something I definitely think about.

M: What is your social life like? Are you able to do simple things like meet a friend for coffee?

SM: I don’t have much of a social life to be honest. It is a struggle to do even little things like meet for coffee or lunch and definitely no money for a night out. I live in the suburbs and my single friends live in the city and among my friends who are parents, I am really the only single person. So I’m kind of in a gray area in terms of friends and not having the means to go out doesn’t help.

M: Because of this gray area, does that mean you’re lacking a support system that could help you do certain things? For example, having a friend who could look after the kids while you went on an interview or a networking event?

SM: For the most part, that is the case. I do have some neighbors and friends who have helped out on rare occasions, but really no one who could help on a regular basis. I don’t have any family in the area, as I said before.

M: Do you ever consider moving back to the Midwest to have a better support system of friends and family around?

SM: I would love to! I want to! But, because of custody laws, I am not able to relocate unless I gave up custody of my kids, which I would never even consider. I would love to be in the Midwest. It’s much cheaper to live there and I would love to be closer to my family.

M: That sounds like it would be ideal for you—to be able to move to the Midwest where things are cheaper and to have a family support system and your children with you. Is there no legal pathway to make this a possibility?

SM: Unfortunately, no. And I spent a lot of time and money trying to make this happen when my husband initiated a divorce. But the laws are such that unless my ex consented, I cannot take the kids out of the area to live. And my ex will not consent so I have to stay in the D.C. area.

M: So if your ex wanted to move, he’d have to get your consent as well?

SM: Yes, that’s correct.

M: I imagine it’d be difficult to convince him that moving would be good because it’d mean providing your children with a better situation?

SM: I really tried that approach during the separation/divorce process, but he was adamant that he wanted the children to remain in close proximity to him. And I do think it is important for the kids to have regular time with both parents, so I can see the point. But it was very difficult because I didn’t want to move to this area, but did because he got a job here. I mean that while we were married he got a job in D.C., I had no desire to move here, but did so to support him.

M: It just seems totally unfair that it appears like he gets to have things the way he wants them to be (though I know you already know this).

SM: Yeah, it was an eye-opening experience for sure. I try really hard not to be bitter about it.

M: I know you have to go pick up your children soon, but I would love to know if you see some tiny bit of light at the end of the tunnel—because I do think you are resilient and resilient people figure out how to get to a better place, even if there’s a bunch of hard tiny things you have to do along the way to eventually get there.

SM: Well, I guess the light is that my kids are fantastic and I really believe that they will have great lives and do the things they want to do. I struggle a lot, I do, and I think about what might have been or what I could have done but I guess at the end of the day if all I manage to do with my life is raise great, good people, then that’s a pretty big accomplishment.

M: I’d love to follow up with you maybe a few months or a year from now to see how you are doing if you are open to that.

SM: Yeah, that would be cool. I tend to hope for the best but expect the worse—so you never know, things could be better in a few months or a year. I’m sorry that this was so bleak.

M: Not everybody’s story comes with a tidy, happy ending. This is the reality of things, and I think it’s important that we can show that. So thank you for being so open and taking the time to talk to me.

Previously: Living on $15,000 a Year

Interested in having a conversation about what you do, how much you earn, and how you make it work? Get in touch.

Mattea Kramer is Research Director for National Priorities Project, a non-profit dedicated to making the federal budget transparent. She gives great budget briefs. I have never actually made enough money to have to pay federal taxes. I talked to her about the federal budget, and why I should care.

Mary Mann: So I guess the big news now is that Obama just put through his budget. But he wrote this thing on this paper, and now what happens to it? Do I have any say in that? Can I be like: “Will you add this, sir?”

Mattea Kramer: No, you can’t get anything new into the President’s budget that came out last week, but here’s the unfortunate thing about that budget: it’s not going to become law. That’s not a good reason for it not to contain your priorities—it should still reflect the priorities of the American people—but it doesn’t matter because it basically has no hope of being passing through Congress.

MM: Then what’s it for? Just for them to look at it and say: “We hate this, we’re going to write a new one?”

MK: Well, in the last few years, yes. Exactly.

See, it’s supposed to come out in February, not April—that’s the start of the annual budget process. The President comes out with his proposal in February, and then that goes to the House and the Senate and they look it over and use it as the starting point to write what hopefully becomes the new budget, which goes into effect at the start of the new fiscal year, October 1st. But in recent years, Obama’s budget has not done anything more than what you just said: lawmakers’ look at it and decide that they hate it, or they don’t even look at it.

MM: Do they just write their own, then he just decides whether to sign this brand-new thing or not?

MK: He does have to sign it into law, and that’s sort of been why what we’ve gotten lately is the most… watered-down doesn’t even begin to describe it. What we have right now for 2013 is basically a budget that’s a continuation of 2012 funding levels because nobody could agree on anything else.

MM: Aren’t those numbers totally wrong?

MK: Yeah. Like, if you think we should invest money in job training and education so that millennials don’t flail and fail—we’re not doing that right now, because we’re still using the 2012 budget. It’s also wrong if you think old programs are wasteful or ineffective or have run their course, because they’re still being funded this year. We’re basically just living in a time warp where it’s still 2012.

MM: That sucks.

MK: Yeah, it’s bad.

MM: Okay, so if Congress decides what to do, is my input just down to who I elect? After they’re elected I really can’t do anything, right?

MK: I think most people feel that way, like they have no power in Washington, but Congress works for us, each individual lawmaker is acutely aware of what it will take to get reelected, so if they hear from constituents on particular issues, they are paying attention. They have legislative aides that are keeping track of constituents who are getting in touch with them, saying “I’m in favor of this” or “I’m not in favor of that.” If all of us were in touch with our elected officials on a regular basis about what we believe should happen in this country… I think this country would look really different.

MM: But… well, this is dumb, but from watching shows like West Wing I imagine that lobbyists are the only people with any real power. Is there a lobby for people in their twenties and thirties?

MK: Yeah, there is! At the National Priorities Project, we have a great partner organization called Young Invincibles. We actually put out a report with them in November about how budget debates are totally shortchanging millennials, not including job creation or education reform, but it’s an uphill battle in part because of what you just mentioned: the power of lobbying. Basically, these narrow interests are well-organized and well-funded, and this huge swath of people born in the eighties are disorganized and poorly funded.

MM: There’s a great South Park episode where everyone over a certain age, 65 or something, has to take their driver’s tests again and everyone is losing their licenses so AARP sends a bunch of old people parachuting into town to save the day and get the old people their licenses back. That’s sort of the impression that I have, that these lobbies like AARP have been around so long that they’ve built this solid organization that can really solve problems for their generation. I don’t really feel protected in that way, where there’s an organization to whom I can just say “take care of this.”

MK: You’re spot on. Young people have far less power. We have less money, we’re less likely to vote, under eighteen we can’t vote, so there’s disproportionate power to older people. When you look at where our tax dollars go, a huge amount goes to Social Security and Medicare which by and large are for the elderly. That’s not saying that those programs aren’t important, they definitely are, but young people, I think most people would agree, are really important too.

MM: And we probably won’t get Social Security, right? Is that a myth or is that true?

MK: That’s a myth. Right now Social Security is fully solvent for the next two decades, after that it’s about 75% solvent through 2086, and it only needs some small tweaks to be 100% solvent for that time and beyond. So it’s well within the ability of our lawmakers to make those tweaks, and in their interests. That’s an intentionally created myth. Under President Bush, a lot of people wanted to privatize Social Security, so it behooved them to make it look like we were facing an immediate crisis.

MM: Well, thank God. Social Security! The other thing is, half my friends are uninsured and everyone is paying student loans, and I don’t have a good sense that either of those things will change anytime soon. I mean, I know that now we all have to have health care now, but who’s enforcing that?

MK: For student loans, there’s not much change on the horizon, unfortunately. For now. But with health care, there’s good news and bad news: the good news is that the Affordable Healthcare Act allows people to be on their parent’s insurance until twenty-six, which has helped a lot of people, but after that you have to be insured. You’ll have to pay a fine on your taxes if you’re not insured.

MM: A fine? Woah. When does that start?

MK: On your 2014 taxes, so in 2015. Two years. It’ll be a big change. It’s kind of crazy to think about.

MM: So let’s say you’re me, and you’re going to be just finishing grad school, and you’ll owe a ton of student loans… Who’s going to give me healthcare? Is it going to be insanely expensive?

MK: Don’t worry, you’re going to be alright. Medicaid is changing the thresholds for who qualifies for healthcare, so you”ll qualify and that will be very affordable.

MM: But how will people know about that? Can I just google Medicaid and click “help me”?

MK: Oh man, I don’t know. We haven’t even gotten there yet. How will the federal government and the states tell billions of people that they have to have health insurance or pay more taxes? It’s going to be interesting.

MM: They’re going to have to partner with Google and do an “Apply for Medicaid” Google Doodle or something.

MK: Well yeah, except that there’s a lot of Americans who aren’t on the good old Interwebs, and if you’re going to require health insurance, there’s a lot of people that will need to be reached in non-wifi communities. I’d guess that a portion of the people who aren’t on the Internet are elderly and they’re already insured on Medicare so they’ll be okay, but low-income people who don’t have access to technology… I don’t know. It’s an enormous task.

MM: A shitshow.

MK: Absolutely.

MM: Here’s another thing: I’ve never had to pay my federal taxes, except Social Security and Medicare, I always get it all back. Since a lot of us in our twenties aren’t making that much money, I always wonder how many of us get all our money back and how that’s going to effect the government as we get older. Is that a thing? This might be a weird question.

MK: No, I hear what you’re saying. It is a thing. It does not bode well for the federal tax revenue. Our generation’s earning power is permanently reduced because of the Great Recession. In key years if you don’t have work experience, or if you have big gaps in your employment, you pay for that for the rest of your career. A generation-wide reduction in employment and income prospects will definitely have implications for federal tax revenue and it’s not good. One of the things in the budget the President just came out with was a limit on all the deductions and loopholes that the wealthiest taxpayers enjoy, because they’re big. It’s not at all clear whether that will get passed into law though.

MM: Yikes. Are there things that I can do that will make it better for me later, or will make it better for me now? It’s kind of scary that we’re going to have such a low earnings potential as a generation because of the recession. That it lasts forever.

MK: I didn’t mean to be such a downer on that one.

MM: Maybe that’s why everyone is obsessed with canning things now. We’re all going to be poor.

MK: Ha, yeah, we have to store away food! Well, see all the stuff we’ve just talked about, this is not set in stone—none of it—not the budget process or where our tax dollars go or what’s going to happen in the future. It’s a path that we’re on right now. But we can change it. We can change the laws that are on the books. All of this is organic and should come from the people. So if we want it to look different from how it looks right now or what it’s projected to, we can change it. But it takes some work. It takes rolling up your sleeves and getting involved. Voting, writing letters, getting informed, informing other people—all that stuff.

MM: How should I get informed though? For example, what happens with the budget that they’re making now? Will we get to see it? Will we understand it? How do you know to write a letter if you don’t know what’s going on?

MK: Actually, that’s one of the things that has been going wrong lately. Remember when I told you about how they’re still funding the 2013 government like it’s 2012? One of the things that happens when they’re doing these temporary spending bills or continuing resolutions is that we don’t get to see it—there’s a last minute backroom deal and then gazillions of pages come out. So not only is it stupid policy, it’s really bad democracy, because there is no opportunity for us to give input. The way this process is supposed to work is that there are should be all these moments where we can talk to elected officials—whether it’s budget committees or appropriation committees or our own legislators. The way things are happening right now is really bad for our democracy.

MM: What are you saying? We won’t be able to see it before it’s done?

MK: Well I don’t know how it will go for the 2014 budget—for the 2013 budget that was the case, but I don’t know how it will go this year. It’s possible we’ll get to read it. Obama certainly didn’t help us by releasing his budget two months late.

MM: Is that even allowed?

MK: It’s not, it’s illegal.

MM: Really? It’s illegal? Is anything going to happen to him?

MK: Nope.

MM: What was his excuse? Like, did the dog eat the first one?

MK: (laughs, graciously) It was bullshit, honestly, and here’s the thing, his administration gave the excuse that they couldn’t release the budget because they didn’t know what was going to happen with sequestration…

MM: Wait, can you explain the sequestration stuff?

MK: Sequestration is a silly budget word for across-the-board spending cuts, and it took affect on March 1st. In February, when he was supposed to have his budget done, the President didn’t know whether or not these cuts would take effect because Congress was trying to figure out how to avoid them, so his administration said they couldn’t release the budget because they wouldn’t know what was happening in 2013 until sequestration got sorted out. There were some other things up in the air too, but then he comes out with his budget two months late and the numbers don’t show what happened with sequestration because the President’s administration said they wrote the budget before that! (Throws up arms in frustration.)

MM: But what happened with sequestration? Did they cut things?

MK: Yeah, these across-the-board spending cuts are in effect for this year, for 2013, and they’re slated to do more cuts in 2014 if Congress doesn’t do anything to prevent them. So for this year, the Department of Defense is seeing some cuts, and also Title 1 grants for some schools, and Head Start and lots of other things.

MM: But what does that look like? I mean, let’s say you and I are the congress…

MK: That would be so great.

MM: I know! So, do I say, dude, Mattea, I feel like doing some sequestering, here’s a whiteboard, I’m gonna write down some shit, you tell me which things I should cut? Is that how it goes?

MK: (laughs) No, no, they wrote this nonsensical law in 2011 that basically said that if Congress didn’t do this debt reduction plan there would be these across-the-board spending cuts and the idea was that the cuts would be so stupid and so bad that the lawmakers would have to come up with a plan to avoid them. It was like a gun to the head so they’d have to act.

MM: Wait, so if the gun’s to the head, who put the gun there? Did the lawmakers put the gun to their own collective head?

MK: Yes, they cocked their own trigger to force themselves into action. That is how bad things are.

MM: That’s ridiculous.

MK: I know! (laughs) And then they didn’t do anything!

MM: Let me get this straight. So if you and I are the Congress, last year we were like, uh, if we don’t do anything this year then next year these things are going to be cut whether we want to or not?

MK: Yup.

MM: And then we didn’t do anything…

MK: …Then we didn’t do anything and then we started blaming each other.

MM: Back then when Congress set that gun to their heads, was that when they wrote those things on the whiteboard and said: “These are the things that we’ll cut?”

MK: Yeah, you could say that, they wrote these things on the whiteboard. Yeah. That’s basically what they did, but back in 2011. The cuts affect only the discretionary budget, so that’s separate from mandatory spending. It doesn’t affect Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid…

MM: Why can’t they just do these things in an easier way and make them more accessible so that I can know and understand what’s going on before it’s affecting me?

MK: They should. Like, I shouldn’t have a job explaining this. This stuff should be transparent, they should do what I do at the government level so that we can understand it, but they don’t.

MM: I wish there was a .gov that I could go to that would say “here’s this law, this is the deal with it, here’s pictures that describe what it means…”

MK: There’s definitely not that. They do put every word of every piece of legislation online for all of us to see and read—the government printing office has a lot of that stuff, and the site Thomas has the status of legislation and tax bills—but it’s all in legislative language so most people can’t read it.

MM: Why is that even a thing? I don’t understand why they can’t write a bill that isn’t painful to read.

MK: Yeah, I know. I actually once asked an attorney friend why and apparently, according to her, the impossible legislative language is important because you have to be very very specific when you’re writing a law.

MM: But can’t you be super specific without being weird about it?

MK: I would think so. I wish. Oh! There’s also a site called PopVox that has plain language, or it’s intended to be plain, with summaries and status of laws so that you can know what’s happening and have a chance to do something. And know when your moment is to talk to legislators about it. So that’s pretty cool.

MM: So, one last question, let’s say you had to make some sort of chart that showed how me and the federal budget intersect—what would that look like? Are we even on the same page? Are the feds the whole page and I’m like a dot somewhere in there?

MK: Hmmmm… it would be an illustration. A picture. And it would be like, oh the water is safe to drink, and there’s roads, and there’s a rule of law enforced, and there’s a justice system (that’s not perfect but it’s there), and there’s public education and national security and community development and parks…. so there’s all these things, and arrows coming from all of them pointing at you. Arrows, arrows, arrows…

MM: That’s not a chart at all!

MK: …arrows, arrows…

MM: So everything affects me.

MK: Exactly.

Mary Mann lives in New York. Photo: Leader Nancy Pelosi

Logan: Mike we both had the GREAT PLEASURE of having company this weekend. I thought we could talk about how that influences our SPENDING. If you’d like.

Mike: Totally. Let’s talk about that. So my cousin and her daughter have been visiting this week, and they were on vacation and in an “anything goes” kind of mood. That meant eating out every day, lots of shopping, and spending money on touristy things like a boat ride around Manhattan and going to New Jersey to visit the bakery where they film Cake Boss. I avoided all of the touristy things. I went shopping with them briefly, but bought nothing. And I’ve been out to dinner with them, but my cousin has insisted on paying each time. I want to pay for dinner tonight, but we’ll see. So, basically, I haven’t really spent any money while they’ve been here. You?

Logan: My friend Kim was here for four days. And I basically went on a bender. Not a drug bender. Or a drinking bender. Or any other kind of bender. But a spending bender. Spender bender. Splendid bender. (I’m broke now.) (No regrets.)

Mike: My cousin earns a good amount of money, so we went shopping in SoHo and went into a bunch of boutique stores—the kind of places where they offer you something to drink while you shop and go above and beyond to get you to buy a $500 dress (or something like that. I tried not to look at price tags because I didn’t want to walk around with a shocked look on my face).

And we went to normal-ish places too, like H&M. I don’t go shopping very often (I have my uniform), but it was interesting to go into stores that I normally wouldn’t go into. Okay, for example, there is a store called Brandy Melville, which is an Italian clothing store for women, and there are no clothing sizes. All the clothes are “one size fits most”—which was interesting to me. My cousin told me they’re meant to be worn loose. Honestly, the sizing seemed to be really misleading. Like, sure, one size fits most if you are thin. I mean, come on.

Logan: That’s on purpose. They only want models in their clothes. MEAN. But back to ME and my bender, it felt great. We did a lot of, you get this, I’ll get you next, because we are friends and that’s what friends do (okay, they do other stuff too, but this is what we do). I paid for a $100 bar tab for five, which I haven’t done in ages, because I haven’t had $100 in ages. And I still don’t really, actually, but I did for a moment and that’s how I chose to spend it. I also went out to dinner. Twice. New York is really fun when you spend money, did you know? I’d forgotten. We also split a cab from the UWS to Brooklyn, which I’ve never ever done before and it was amazing! Also only $30. And then we SPLIT IT.

Mike: I mean, I did spend $200 on dinner two weeks ago. So, yes, I know. But I’m making up for that by going back into austerity mode. Are you back in austerity mode?

Logan: Forced. Yes. Quite austere. Zero cash dollars are hanging about now. In fact I spent my last $9 on a cab ride today because it was raining and I didn’t want to get wet. And my last $11 before that on doughnuts and coffee. And my last $11 before that on two beers at happy hour. And my last $7 before that at Pret, on a cheddar and tomato sandwich. Out with a bang. I’ll be in my bed watching Netflix for the next seven days. E tu? Oh P.S. I have paid all my bills and I have groceries and I planned for this bender so, like, “It’s Cool.” I don’t need to borrow money or anything. Responsible irresponsibility.

Mike: I probably would have spent more money if I had someone visiting who didn’t make a lot of money. You just can’t help it because nobody comes to visit you from out of state or from out of the country to sit around your apartment all day. They want to do stuff. Also, this is the first time in many years that I had family come to visit so if I were paying to go out to dinner, I would have gladly done it.

Logan: Where are you going to dinner tonight? I would like to show up and sit across the restaurant and watch you.

Mike: We are going to meet downtown and then walk around until something catches our eye. Which is a fun thing to do sometimes. Oh, and I’m trying to pay for dinner tonight.

Logan: Okay well just don’t forget to like, check in on Foursquare. Facebook. Send me a drop pin. DM me your coordinates. I’ll be waiting.

Mike: I’ll activate my iPhone tracker, so you will always know where I am. Or at least where my iPhone is, anyway.

Logan: Come on, Mike. If I know where your iPhone is, I know where you are. It’s 2013.

Logan: I just spent a long time reading Wikipedia pages about Easter and eggs and bunnies, and what I discovered was: Eggs and rabbits have been symbols of fertility and rebirth, forever, even Before Jesus, and then after Jesus, the egg also became a symbol of the tomb, though most people ignore that part. “Here, have this tomb.” Also, symbolism is great. That is what I learned today.

Mike: Did you and your family have typical Easter celebrations? Hunts and coloring eggs and such? I remember coming home from school one day and asking my mom if we could get an egg coloring kit and she asked, “Why? Why is this a thing?” Well, in so many words. Immigrant parents!

Logan: Haha I wish your mom said, “Why is this a thing?” We did do Easter stuff, but it sort of trickled off, unlike the Christmas thing, which we continue to this day. My major Easter memories are from when we were in elementary school and younger, when my mom’s parents were alive. We’d go to their house, which was a couple hours away, and my mom’s dad–who we called Papa John—would hide these candy easter eggs all over the yard for us to find. And my granny would make ham.

Mike: I remember really wanting to have one of those Easter baskets with a chocolate bunny and a coloring book and other junk tied up in cellophane, and again my mom would be like, “Ugh, those are terrible and a waste of money!” (Again, in so many words.) And she was right. They were a waste of money! But once my aunts and uncles started having more kids, they started trying to make it fun for us. So they’d buy the plastic pastel eggs and put candy in them and give it to us, and we’d be like, “No, you’re suppose to hide them.” And then my uncles and aunts would be like, “Okay!” And would then hide them in really difficult locations. Like up in a tree in one of our backyards. Or hidden in the rain gutter. And we’d spend all day trying to figure out how to get the eggs down. It was really fun, actually.

Logan: Ugh that sounds really fun. Yeah Easter was never my favorite of the Christian-commercial holidays. I have lots of Christmas memories, and I can remember believing in Santa for a long time, but I can’t remember ever believing in the Easter Bunny. I think maybe my parents were less into selling us on that lie. But we got Easter baskets when we were kids. Lots of candy, little stuffed bunnies. My mom was so good at stuff like that—planning birthday parties, making Easter baskets. She made us little bags on Valentine’s day, too—or a homemade card or flowers. But again, that stopped in high school. I think with Christmas, at least everyone is giving things to everyone, but Easter baskets were just for kids, and it was silly once we were older I think. Then the tradition became, buying Easter candy after Easter when it was half price.

Mike: I never believed in the Easter Bunny either—did anyone? A giant monstrous rabbit running around with plastic eggs? But we did celebrate Easter in a religious context, too. I also remember that the year we taught the adults to hide eggs, they decided the following year that they were going to do this thing where some of the eggs would have dollar bills in them, one of the eggs would have a five or a ten, and one of the eggs would have a $20. So we’d run around all day climbing trees, digging around bushes, and going around fences looking for eggs, and then we’d all open the eggs after we were done to see who got what. That was also fun. The adults liked holidays where they could give the kids money since we didn’t have allowances. Chinese New Year was the holiday where this is the most relevant—red envelopes with dollars in them and such.

Logan: You never had an allowance?

Mike: I was given $5 a week, but that was to buy lunch at school.

Logan: Are you speaking for all children of immigrants?

Mike: Haha. Yes, I am the spokesperson for The Children of Immigrants. Nah, I’m sure there were a bunch that received allowances! My family just wasn’t the sort. I’m sure I explained the concept of allowances to my folks at one point and they were like, “Haha. No, you do chores because that’s what you’re supposed to do—not for a reward.”

Logan: I didn’t get a regular allowance. I think my parents experimented with giving us allowances at some point—maybe in high school? But their style was more to give us money when we needed it, or when they felt we needed it. Like, when we were older, when it was time to buy new clothes for school, we’d each get some amount of money they’d decided on—maybe $100, I don’t remember. My brother would usually buy a pair of shoes, and I’d go to TJ Maxx and get one million shirts, or whatever.

Mike: My parents didn’t make a lot of money, so I think for them it didn’t make sense to give us allowances, and yeah, that’s what made holidays and birthdays something to look forward to—knowing we’d get a little something we could save or spend however we wanted. I’m not sure if I’ll be the type of parent who will give an allowance, although I thought I might be. I’d like to do some research on this. A future article!

My father and I recently had our annual recorded discussion about money. This one went mostly okay.

Logan Sachon: What are you watching?

Mike Sachon: I flip between CNBC and Bloomberg. Trying to keep abreast of the world stock markets and the world economies, since I’m invested in some domestic stocks and some foreign stocks. And some foreign ETFs.

LS: What’s an ETF?

MS: It’s baskets of foreign stocks, is what it is, basically.

LS: How do you pick what you’re going to invest in?

MS: I read Barron’s magazine and I watch these television shows, and I do research at the online brokerage.

LS: So you make your own investment decisions?

MS: Right.

LS: And you’ve always done it that way?

MS: Yeah. I started investing in a tax-sheltered savings, like a 403(b) since I was a public employee. It’s the same as a 401(k), but the tax rules about it are different, slightly. I started doing that when I was about 30.

LS: What precipitated that?

MS: I don’t remember exactly. At that time I was in an MBA program, so I had taken some finance courses and that probably was the impetus to think about investing.

When I first got out of school I worked computer programming at a defense contractor in Virginia Beach. I lived at home for a year and saved enough money for the down payment I needed to get into a small house.

LS: Did you consider that an investment when you did it?

MS: I considered it a better standard of living than I would have if I was in an apartment. And I knew, even if a house doesn’t appreciate, even if it stays the same, you’re paying off the loan, and the interest on the loan you’re able to write off against the tax liability, which lowers the total cost of the loan. And eventually you start paying off the principal that you borrowed of the house. So eventually when you sell you can make some money. At that time, houses were going up two or three percent a year, so I didn’t think I was going to make a lot of money.

But I still own that house. I paid off the loan and I’ve had rental income for 28 years. But at the time, it was a pretty equivalent choice—I had a three-bedroom house and the cost was about the same as a two-bedroom apartment, the monthly cost. And now the house is worth five times what I paid for it. Even after the correction, after the real estate collapse of 2008.

LS: Correction. I haven’t heard that before.

MS: Markets correct, and the real estate market corrected. It was a bubble with inflated prices.

LS: Up until 30, did you have excess money?

MS: No.

LS: That makes me feel a lot better. Like I still have some time. I’ve got two years to buy a house.

MS: You don’t have to buy a house. That’s not feasible.

LS: Actually I have one year. Fuck.

MS: Ha, yes, you have one year.

LS: Okay, so when you decided you wanted to start investing, where did that money come from?

MS: Tax-sheltered payroll withholding, so it was through work, you could save money before taxes. So you could save $100, but it would only reduce your takehome pay by $80. When I bought my first house, I was making $10,000 a year, and my house payment with taxes and insurance was $315.

LS: Can you explain to me the difference between going to a casino and playing the stock market?

MS: In my mind, and I’ve played it every way, when you invest in stocks, you look for growth companies, you look for companies that pay dividends and have a history of consistently paying dividends. You look for value stocks that are good companies that for some reason have not looked at favorably by the market, so they might be opportunities, to buy low and later sell high, and then the fourth time is totally speculative buying, that’s kind of like Vegas. You’re buying a story and it can be like playing roulette.

LS: Have you done all of it?

MS: Oh yeah.

LS: Why?

MS: Now I buy individual stocks. Before, the 403(b), you didn’t have a lot of investment choices. Initially it was a fixed account that you would save money and it would pay compound interest. Even saving in a fixed account, compound interest will let that grow over time.

LS: And you didn’t start with compound interest til you were 30.

MS: Right. And so. Initially the 403(b) plans were offered from life insurance companies. They were fixed accounts, tax sheltered savings, you couldn’t invest in stocks. But once the opportunity became possible to invest from stocks and mutual funds, I switched my tax savings to an account that let me save and invest in mutual funds.

LS: Was that a gamble? Because the compound interest was a sure thing.

MS: No I viewed it as an opportunity, because stock markets tended to average 8 to 10% over the long term. So I saw it as a way to grow my wealth faster.

LS: Was it ever real money?

MS: It’s always real money, but it didn’t feel like real money at the time because it came out of my salary before I got my check. It was just money that I never saw, so it couldn’t be part of what I budgeted. And there was a time when I stopped doing it.

LS: Why was that?

MS: The cost of private school. Actually I can’t even say it was totally that because it may have been when mom didn’t work for a year. So I stopped it, because I needed more takehome pay, because your mom, when you were little, she took one year off and then she worked part-time for another year. So that’s why I stopped.

LS: Was it stressful to stop?

MS: No. At that time we just couldn’t afford it. But as soon as she went back to work fulltime, we both started saving again, investing.

LS: So back to real money.

MS: It’s not real money you can touch. It was in a place where you’d have to fill out paperwork, pay penalties to get to the money, as well as income tax when you pull it out.

LS: So it was always for your future.

MS: Right. We looked at that as retirement savings, and we lived within the cash flow that we had other than that. We didn’t really think about savings beyond that. We didn’t think about building up a savings account. We had stable jobs. So we didn’t have six months of savings in case we were out of work, but we would save money toward buying an appliance or something. And we typically bought used cars.

And we both had stable employment, mom with the school system, me with the university. A state university.

The first six years out of college I didn’t have stable employment. My first job was with a defense job, I was there for two and a half years, and the contract we were working on got bid out to another company. And then when I first got a job at the university, I was employed by a National Science Foundation grant, and that was three years, and that was soft money—when that ended there was no job. Once I was hired by the university they created a position, I thought I’d finish my master’s degree and then leave, but then my job became more defined, and I ended up staying for 31 more years.

LS: Did you always know you were going to stay that long?

MS: There were a couple of times when I thought of leaving. There was one time when I thought I was going to have to leave.

Once I was over 15 years as a state employee, there was a lot of incentive to stay longer. The state pension really only becomes enough to live on when you have 30 years in the system. You can have less than that, but the amount of your pension goes down like 4% every year less than 30. So it was a lot of incentive to stay. Once you’re in a state system, employee salaries tended to be an easy target to balance the state budget, so we went many years without a salary increase. And before I retired we went three in a row without a salary increase.

LS: Before that was it merit-based, or a raise every year?

MS: A combination.

LS: When did you start thinking seriously about retirement?

MS: At one time in the middle of the nineties, the computer field was taking off all over the country. And I thought about leaving then, so that would be 15 or 16 years into my employment there. And that was a pivotal point. If I was going to stay in the system it was going to be for the long run, because that was the time to leave. And I chose to stay.

LS: Because of the pension?

MS: After 15 years, that’s really an incentive. Yeah. You see the fact that 15 years later, I would be 58 years old, and I’d be in a position to retire at 58. And that was incentive to stay. The other thing was, I had a working wife and two kids in local schools, and changing jobs meant we would probably relocate.

LS: But still, you were 40 and thinking about yourself in 20 years.

MS: Oh yeah. Your mom calls me the poster boy for retirement, because I’d been talking about it when we were married.

LS: So when you first started investing when you were 30, were you also thinking about your 60-year-old self?

MS: Yes, the idea was, in my mind, if you wanted to have a nice retirement, you needed more than one source of income. So you have to put that money aside and not even think about it to meet your monthly expenses. Growing old comes faster than you think. You’re 29 in May.

LS: 29 ahhhhh. That’s old. But no, it’s young. I’m no spring chicken. But maybe I am a spring chicken. I feel fine with my age. Only like 20% of my hair is gray. At this point, have you taken out the money you’ve invested?

MS: Yes. I started taking it out. And I decided that taking out as much—mom and I went on a big European trip, and I can show you the bank records of how much we transferred to you clowns. But I decided I wanted to take that money out for big purchases, but I didn’t like the way the taxes were working out. So I decided to refinance the house, so I got a ten-year loan at 3%, and that took care of any outstanding loans that we had and gave us enough cash so I have cash to take care of any other needs that we have. Then I can pull the money out of my tax shelter to make the payments on that loan.

LS: And you just figured that out by yourself?

MS: Yes.

LS: If you hadn’t invested that money, would you still have been able to retire?

MS: Yeah, but I probably wouldn’t. One of our 403(b) companies prepared a retirement analysis before we decided to retire and that money, the money that we had saved, really put us in a position where we could retire at age 59 and be able to afford our retirement.

LS: Did grandma and grandpa do stocks and stuff?

MS: Yeah, yeah they did. I didn’t really talk about that with them. They did some, which was good. They were in a good shape. They saved their money in treasury bills. They had some mutual funds invested and they had invested in treasury bills. I had talked to my dad about that, and what they were invested in.

But treasury bills are now a terrible investment. Because the interest rates are being kept artificially low by the Federal Reserve, so people who are saving money and have money locked in what is a safe investment, it doesn’t pay any interest. So the Federal Reserve are helping banks regain their riches but are really harming people who are looking for safe assets for their retirement money. If you have inflation at 2%, treasury bills should at least pay you a few points over inflation, but instead ten-year bills are paying inflation rate, which is ridiculous.

LS: How do you buy them?

MS: You can go through a broker, but if you’re smart you’ll go to the treasury and open your own account. I had some at one point, but when the interest rate got crummy, I moved them to mutual funds or stocks.

You have to make sure you’re earning more money than you’re spending every month. You need to spend less than you make, and that involves daily decision making. And you have to view purchases like a six dollar cappucino is $180 a month for cappucino, a $15 lunch is $480 you’re spending on lunch. You have to decide. At the end of one month, if you can save enough to go have a cappucino the next month on your savings, then do it. But you can’t have a cappuciono if you can’t get to the end of the month and buy groceries without someone sending you a grocery store gift card. You can’t go to the bar—

LS: I stopped going to the bar.

MS: I’m not talking about you.

LS: You are talking about me.

MS: I’m not talking about you. I thought we were having a conversation about—

LS: You are talking about me! You are using this as an opportunity to yell at me!

MS: I’m not yelling. Now if you want to talk about you, we can talk about you.

LS: …

MS: I don’t think you want to talk about you, and I don’t blame you.

LS: I don’t think there’s anything to talk about right now. I’m doing what I have to do.

MS: One comment. I think you’re going through this transition where you think you have this weakness in not being able to manage money, and I think that you’re slowly learning how to manage your money, and it’s empowering when you do. It’s taken you a long time to learn how to live poor. That’s what it is.

LS: You never lived poor.

MS: Well, you know. I never tried to compete with friends who had higher salaries and more stuff. And I never used credit cards to try to maintain some lifestyle. I charged over $50,000 in credit cards last year and paid zero interest and got money back for the effort.

LS: I think we’ve established that I’m not a person that will ever work for.

MS: Not if you carry a balance, it won’t. They reformed credit cards so on the credit card statement, they will show you every month what a sucker you are. But people don’t look at their statements, I guess. Or people without money don’t see the value. Or don’t see they’ll be spending $2,000 in interest on the cappucinos they bought in the last year. Credit cards cannot be used for credit. They should only be used for convenience.

LS: I don’t understand why you even have them.

MS: To get reduced-price trip to Europe. I have them to get money back. I have an American Express that gives me 3% on gas, 2% when I go out to dinner, 1% for everything I charge. So I get a check for $300 at the end of the year. And I paid no interest. That check wouldn’t feel very good if I paid $2,000 in interest in the last year.

The convenience is that the stores pay the credit card company to use the card. They don’t need your money, to use as fake money. I hope you’ve learned by now that it’s not your money. It’s your future money.

LS: Did you ever have credit card debt?

MS: No. Never.

LS: Well aren’t you something.

MS: I am.

LS: What are your worries about me?

MS: My worry is that you have this credit card debt. And you have nothing to show for it.

LS: That always confused me. If I had a closet full of designer clothes and shoes, that’d be better?

MS: No. No. That would be the same thing. It wasn’t a big emergency. I would use a credit card for a big emergency. But you just used it to increase your monthly income without thinking about how you’d pay it back. Compound interest works both ways. When you’re paying for stuff on a revolving credit card, the amount it costs goes up a lot. When you’re saving money, you want to go the longest period of time. And when you’re using credit, you’re doing just the opposite. You’re stealing from yourself and your future.

LS: So your biggest worry about me is about something I did in the past. Because I’m not doing it anymore.

MS: When are you going to have all your credit cards paid off?

LS: I have no way of knowing that. If my income stayed stagnant … forever.

MS: You need to look at your statements. You need to have an idea of what it’s costing you to continue holding that credit. So that when you do get more money, it’s your highest priority to pay that off. Because if you’re just making the minimum payment plus $5 and thinking you’re really cutting into it, you’re not.

LS: I could have enough money to have a nice life, if I didn’t have the payments. Like I’d have some disposable income. I’d be alright.

MS: I’m glad you finally admit it. In other words, what you did to get yourself in that position, before you went to New York, you doing that then, look at the detriment it had on your future, your current life.

LS: Looking back is totally pointless though.

MS: Not if you’ve learned from it. But you’ve already had two strikes with credit card debt. You got it down to zero twice. This was the third time and you didn’t learn anything. You had me pay it off. You refinanced your car, which thankfully you had enough equity in it, again, me, and you still didn’t learn a lesson. Why? But I wasn’t aware when you were building up your huge credit card debt. I had no idea. And we don’t talk about your finances, I don’t know how you’re doing, except that I know you can’t pay your taxes. So I know the hole is getting deeper. You can’t ignore the fact that you have to pay taxes as an independent contracter, and at some point you’ve got to start doing something about it. So yeah I’m worried about you.

So you keep working hard. Your income comes up. And you live the same lifestyle until you cover all this debt. That’s the way out of this. That’s the only way out of this for you. You can’t grow a lifestyle with your income until you erase that debt. And then you will have learned your lesson. Maybe.

LS: I’m not a person who has ever thought about the future much, obviously. But when I look at you and mom, I’m not going to have a pension. And I’m not going to have investments like you do.

MS: You don’t know that. You take care of your debt, and then you can start saving for retirement. You’re not going to have a pension, but most people in this country don’t have a pension. We were fortunate enough to work for a state that at least in the past was fiscally responsible.

LS: So you don’t think it’s too late for me.

MS: Of course I don’t think it’s too late for you. When your mom and I were married, I was 32 years old. I didn’t have any money.

LS: But you had a house.

MS: I had a house. But it wasn’t much.

LS: Back to investing. Is that something you have to do?

MS: You have to do it.

LS: But how do people do it who didn’t get MBAs?

MS: You’ll start a retirement fund and you can have somebody manage it for you. There are ways, companies will manage your money for you and pick your investments.

LS: So there’s no way to opt out of that game.

MS: Yeah, but it’s foolish to opt out of that game. Logan, let’s say you’re 40 years old when you’re in a position to start saving for retirement. And you put away 10% of your gross income, because when you start at 40 you need to save that much. And you do that until you stop work and between social security—there will be some kind of social security—and your savings, you’ll be able to support yourself in some way. But if you have nothing but social security, you’re going to be in a big trouble when you’re 68.

LS: But there will be a lot of people like that.

MS: So. There are going to be a lot of poor people. Why do you want to be in that boat? Why would you think that’s a good future? There’s a lot of people who aren’t going to save a penny! It’s time for you to start thinking about the future. If you had started thinking about the future four or five years ago, you’d have such a better lifestyle right now.

LS: So, let’s pretend I’ll do exactly what you say. What would you tell me to do right now.

MS: I think you’re doing the right thing, taking steps to increase your income. That’s the biggest thing you have to do now.

LS: Do you think it’s stupid that I’m living in New York?

MS: No, with what you’re doing for a living, that’s where you need to be.

LS: Do you think my generation is screwed? Do you think my future is dark?

MS: No. The answer is no. But I think looking for a job in the economy of the last four years is tough. I think the path to getting good jobs is a longer one. I think you, your generation, is having to start out with a job that is less than what you had imagined for yourself. You have to take what you can find, but you don’t have to settle for that. Use that as a starting point. I’m glad you have a job.